The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be confused. It was a party nevertheless. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage betweenMandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and theAmanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drugoverdoses. He stares down at her but that'sit, and Kubrick tryied in vain to tlel his stories visually so itshould be considerd from a visual perspective. The masked woman was played by a different actor but is the samecharacter. Put on some headphones and listen. at the> ceremony/orgy. >Even in the morgue he still might not have been positive, but he replays >her voice in his head while looking over the body. "you are going to need some rehab," she says, "I know." orpsychotherapists. I mean hewas filmed only in england, but the photography behind him in thatglove clapping shot is projected or whatever and so that means that hedidn't care that mucha bout switching things around like actresses andstuff, it's about masks anyway the movie is. >> The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy all> along. -- Steven L.Email: sdli@earthlinkNOSPAM.net, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB6g66OYoKI, "Steven L." wrote in message. It's a kind of dissassociation from reality, and an obsessive flight of ideas, into endless, words and meta-words. I am normally the last guy in the, > world to criticize somebody for using big words. Even had Alice found it in the cadenza, would > she have recognized it as meaningful and taken it?>> Even though much was 'cleared" up there are still major mysteries here. ">> "Victor what can I say. There are many aspects of it that ARE still a > mystery such as I was suggesting with the costume. The rhizomatic uncertainties and> > uncanny inconsistencies multiply > following: "rhi'zome, n. A rootlike stem under or along the ground,> ordinarily in a horizontal position, which usually sends out roots from> from its lower surface and leafy shoots from its upper surface. >>>>>>>>>>How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all >>>>>>>>>>wearing> masks? He had no reason to think Zeigler was at Somerton, till Zeigler tells him. at the >> ceremony/orgy.>, > Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice?>. There's like a billion posts here at alt.movies.kubrick and you cansearch the archives for this information. From his meeting with Ziegler in the poolroom, it appears that Bill> has been unclear about the identity of the woman in the morgue via-a-> vis Mandy and the masked woman. Somerton could hardly be described (andcertainly not by Bill) as a 'party.' I am ready And coming from the newsgroup'sresident acid-headed, solipsistic zombie. ". Regardless of the different actresses in the credits, what I see is that the woman at the ceremony, who redeems him, apparently the "mysterious woman," has a small freckle/mole on her chest about 2 inches to her left side of center, above her breasts, which I think, can also be seen slightly on the corpse. It's "clear," after studying the film after many viewing. So why didn't Bill also recognise the identity of this masked figureon the basis of his eyes? And isn't this the mistake that many of the film's> critics made, reading Ziegler's story as 'ruining' the mystery,> desublimating the film's narrative by means of an all-neat-and-tidy> denouement? Please either stop orshape up. Milich even tried to talk Bill into renting a more colorful costume. You saw > her volunteer to sacrifice herself so the orgy managers would let Doctor > Cruise go free.>> If the woman in the mask had been the same woman as Mandy, you would have > expected some recognition of that from Doctor Cruise. > it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." that Bill first makes this connection, or at least, hasit confirmed by someone else (Ziegler). To take Tess or Barry Lyndon in the same context is perhaps moreappropriate to various periods stylistically divergent from an intentor device for Picasso to depict women;- a later advancement thatneedn't further qualification than figures posed in gold, as was aliteral premium exacted upon proceeds, so written by one later model,over stipends derived from the estate. He wasn't positive. Even Sk was not perfect in that way-----or was hethere is the mystery. It's totally clear the "party' in this reference, is Somerton. I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite a few notches below EWS. I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it is silly. :>released around the same time, The Ninth Gate. > Even Sk was not perfect in that way-----or was hethere is another > mystery. If he were> Ziegler, wouldn't he instead be going out of his way to privately> communicate with Bill, to get Bill out of Somerton as quickly as> possible in order to avoid any possible trouble (and as Ziegler> subsequently admits, Bill's gate-crashing 'made me look like a> complete fool')? As opposed to arborescent: two contrasting concepts central to muchphilosophical debate over the past few decades (see, for instance, thework of philosophers Deleuze and Guattari). Let's get out of here.You're my witness. But then, Ziegler's 'explanation', his retconningof past events, only serves to further propel Bill into subjectivedestitution, another 'replay' of Bill's unmasking at Somerton, Zieglerpower-presiding over Bill's position and status at a red pool-tablemuch like Red Cloak presided over the power ritual on a red carpet atSomerton. > <<<<<<< after> visiting the morgue, as his disbelief at Ziegler's explanation> indicated. > The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy > all along, If it is vague, then how can it also be 'clear'? ---people with no idea of the futility and silliness of counting endless grains of sands, with their mental masturbations and perserverations. we talked about this about 8 years ago on this newsgroup . (meaning the Mysterious woman) "victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the women at the party, well victor, maybe i'm missing something heyou call it a Charadetell me what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". Are you suggesting that the people running Somerton would let thewomen there know that there was an interloper? >>>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton people> only learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious of> his manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coat> pocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<, > So maybe they were all wearing walkie talkies under those masks, what do, > you want me to say?..no, this IS left as a huge mystery. Again, is this not another case of'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simplybecause of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member ofthe power elite? WebEyes Wide Shut is Stanley Kubricks love letter to his wife. > If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. <<<<<<<<<<<<<. He is not exactly > voicing his thoughts. > Mandy was not the same woman. So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) thiswould 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? I recognized the voice of the mysterious woman first time I saw the film. Is that how youwould describe it? Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professionaldoctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety thanabout Mandy's actual wellbeing. >>>>>>>>If this were really thecase, wouldn't Bill have recognised that voice when speaking to themasked woman at Somerton, instead of asking her "Who are you?" >>Bill was not yet sure it was Mandy from the bathroom, till he happened to >>see the news story and saw the name "Amanda," then it started to come >>together.>, > These last points I've already covered>. > Well thats all true, but of course that was SK making a masterpiece and > one of the most amazing films ever made IMO. Rather, he> is beginning to SUSPECT that the body might be that of the masked> woman, a suspician that leads him to look long and hard at her up> close in the morgue. WebThe protagonists mask (Bill Harford, interpreted by Tom Cruise) is a Venetian mask that covers the entire face. I don't think there were any other dreams, although the redpool table scene always seemed the most dreamlike to me. In the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, subliminally. Bill is ushered to a crowded room and unmasked by the master of ceremonies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, is this not another case of'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simplybecause of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member ofthe power elite? Statanic mass? But it isn't clear at all, and nobody in the film refers to the eventsat Somerton as a 'party.'<<<<<<<. Not only are they the REAL "anti-intellectuals," they were schizoid as hell and projected it onto the social mess, creating political gibberish, that has NO usefulness to anyone. Please either stop > or> shape up. Desire is always the desire of theOther our dreams constituring the realisation of desire. >He also must have recognized> the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a> tinge of distinctive accent. The 'mystery' is how SHE knows that he is an interloper. Superman movies must keep him in the pre 80s, or he needsto do some serious upgrading. ", "They were nutcases. 0. Well at least you're ostensibly modest enough to acknowledge yourunfamiliarity with such a concept, but then you proceed to betray yourdumb, sniggering agenda by perpetuating your ignorance with adismissive, anti-intellectual fart: > My extra-fat dictionary yields the> following: "rhi'zome, n. A rootlike stem under or along the ground,> ordinarily in a horizontal position, which usually sends out roots from> from its lower surface and leafy shoots from its upper surface.". AmericanCinematographer did some thing on the lighting or something in thismovie when it came out, but David Mullen who used to post here (whenthis place was even worse) could answer like anything. :>I thought this film was much less interesting than the competing film. As for Kelpzoid's rants on the topic - isn't there a RAW Illuminatusng out there somewhere? <<<<<<<<<<. I never said Bill recognized him.we get to recognize him when > we study it. Which all suggests that Ziegler didn't actually knowabout Bill's presence at Somerton until he removed his mask >> If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. >In a big crowd of masked> people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is). Mandy was not the same woman. I had absolutely no idea you were involved in any > way. WebSleep Mask for Women, Eye Mask for Sleeping Blindfold Block Out Light and Relieves Dry Eyes with Extra Gel Beads Pad,Super Smooth and Flower Patterns 4.4 4.4 out of 5 stars The movie is based on the 1920's novella Dream Storyand Kubrick developed the project for decades, and once considered a slightly more comedic take with Steve Martin in the lead role. >Even in the morgue he still might not have> been positive, but he replays her voice in his head while looking over the> body. Deleuze probably realized how stupid he was before he jumped out that window. It iscertainly distinctly possible that the woman at the party is otherthan the woman at the Somerton ritual, though the former does appearto be the Mandy that ends up in the morgue (she never made it to'rehab', as Dr Bill had suggested but never bothered following up,just later shunted home by Ziegler's heavies); remember, we only haveZiegler's explanation/confirmation that they are the same 'Mandy',hardly a reliable witness given his contradictory assertionsthroughout the film. Ironically, that is just what power (and Ziegler)> would want you to believe - that the world of power and power elites> doesn't exist, is just all a charade anyway, that those who do> recognise the realities of social power and of desire are just> paranoid conspiracy nutters (when in fact it is those who> attribute all that occurs in the film to 'a dream' who are being> properly paranoid). http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-zen/. Well, in the interview with "Mandy" - Julienne Davis. That would not be valuable or insightful speculation, but a totaldenial of most of what happens in the film (another variation of 'it'sall just a dream', everything being attributable to the delusions ofBill's mind, a denial of the world of social power, similar to sayingthat everything that happens to Jack Torrance in The Shining is all'in his mind'). That is what she was" implying that her death> is of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Ziegler> chooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by the> Zieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by his> desire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house> ("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" Ironically, that is just what power (and Ziegler)would want you to believe - that the world of power and power elitesdoesn't exist, is just all a charade anyway, that those who dorecognise the realities of social power and of desire are justparanoid conspiracy nutters (when in fact it is those whoattribute all that occurs in the film to 'a dream' who are beingproperly paranoid). Next: The Shining: Why Stanley Kubrick Changed Stephen King's Story. But the worst thing is your silly and smug arrogance. A part-time hobby soon blossomed into a career when he discovered he really loved writing about movies, TV and video games; he even (arguably) had a little bit of talent for it. Even though much was 'cleared" up there are still major mysteries here that unless they are encoded in single frames for analyssis will alwasy be a mystery. > First of all, Mandy must have felt some connection with Bill since he was > showing her concern and kindness in the Bathroom. > certainly not by Bill) as a 'party. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. Yes, the uncertainty about the identities of the women is Structuralto the film's splintered narrative. He didn't recognise her voice. EWS was potential. The movie went through post-production following Stanley Kubrick's death, though some have argued about how much it represents his intended vision. <<<<<<<<< her mask if this were so? Perhaps it> would have worked better if there had been a photo in the news> article. When I did this, at first it seems like a similar, but different face, but then seeing one frame of the bathroom scene from a certain angle, it jumped out at me that it was the same person, but I could be wrong. at the ceremony/orgy. >> >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? Apparently word of Bill's entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast. He treated her as a not-very-important> patient; no Mandys attend Bill's upmarket surgery.>, Apparently word of Bill's entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast.>, > How? It was a > party nevertheless. The film centers on a profoundly unsatisfied couple tied together not by pure love, but by social convenience and appearances. (1) As more people opt for lasik surgery, he will not be able to hide behind those specs. > not bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using > them> serves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. And even if it was clear, even if he hadreferred directly to the events of the night before as the (Somerton)party, it would still be uncertain, because. WebI n the film "Eyes Wide Shut", who was the masked woman that redeemed Tom Cruise's character? Wasn't the woman in the mask a lot skinnier than the ODd woman?? No, it was just set up that way, as a puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion. Here was Stanley Kubrick, for many the worlds greatest living filmmaker, returning with his first finished project in 12 years a sexually provocative adult drama, utterly shrouded in secrecy, starring pre-eminent Hollywood power couple Tom news:47897d0b$0$5129$4c36@roadrunner.com > Harry writes: (seen on google)>> >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense >> >>> of>>> anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible >> mumbling),<<<>, >> No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare >> kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" "you are going to need some rehab," she says, "I > know.". He's eventually discovered and forced to remove his mask but is saved from a bleak fate by another masked woman who tried to warn him to leave earlier. What else could he call it? Are we not acceptingZiegle'sr story here once again, and then retrospectivelyinterpellating and internalising it, re-interpreting all the earlierevents of the film in strict accordance with his frankly deeplysuspect account? It is only when Ziegler responds> positively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman in> the morgue?" That is what she was" implying that her deathis of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Zieglerchooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by theZieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by hisdesire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. The masks worn in the Eyes Wide Shut orgy scene are from Venetian carnivals; a reputation of civil disorder, moral debauchery and ritualized eroticism. <<<<<<< People often don't make definitive connections between things at the > moment. 2. These ceremonies must have been a big customenr for his former patient. Perhaps the conspiracies surrounding Eyes Wide Shut began when the maker of the film, Stanley Kubrick, died only days after the first viewing of it. And the Somerton ritual is alsoambiguous; how, or rather why, for instance, does the masked womanupon first meeting the masked Bill, assert with such certainty that"You shouldn't be here", then followed by repeated warnings that hiscontinued presence at the ritual will get him in trouble? Bill is still even denying he knows what Zeigler is talking about till Zeigler says "I was there at the house. The second half of Eyes Wide Shut sees Bill being given ominous warnings from this secret society, and he can't seem to find his mask from the party. >on the balcony looking down at Bill, knows that it is him and nodded to >him. WebEyes Wide Shut Flat Mask By NomadMessenger From $8.79 Wide Awake during 2020, by Haus of Butterfly Flat Mask By hausofbutterfly From $10.99 Eyes Wide Shut Flat Mask By ArjunVile From $10.99 Colorful watercolor ink splash woman portrait Flat Mask By Misschemical From $9.16 Colorful watercolor ink splash woman portrait Flat Mask By